Response To RatWiki’s Pragmatosphere Article

1. Introduction

On Reddit, I had a long text debate with a reddit user named u/Electric-Gecko that lasted multiple months in 2023 (which started with this comment that I left on r/Georgism), but I had since deleted all the comments that I wrote in response to his replies because he tried to report me to the r/Georgism subreddit and Reddit for “harassment” since I was asking him to give a rebuttal(s) against my arguments1.

After a series of events on Reddit and Discord, he started writing a RatWiki article about Blithering Genius and a second article about the Pragmatosphere under his RatWiki username LiamM32. Hence, I will refer to him as “Liam” for the rest of this article. Keep in mind that wikis allow for multiple authors, and the entry could change after I write this. The quotes were pulled at the time of writing. I won’t bother responding to everything, but I will respond to most of it.

On this webpage, I will be responding to the Pragmatosphere article on RatWiki.

I’ve kept archives of all the replies that I sent to u/Electric-Gecko in our reddit debate, before I deleted my comments. It’s not worth it to repost all of them, but on this webpage, I will re-state the arguments that I had sent to u/Electric-Gecko on Reddit that he still hasn’t addressed, since this webpage is also directed at him to an extent.

Now let’s get to the response.


2. Addressing RatWiki’s Pragmatosphere Article

For the RatWiki article’s introduction, I don’t have much to say that won’t be addressed later on. However, I should note that the Pragmatosphere is loosely connected to the Dark Enlightenment / Neo-Reactionary (NRx) Movement (Wikipedia article, RatWiki article). Blithering Genius once said that he started blogging and vlogging in early 2013, after he was exposed to the NRx movement on Youtube. Nevertheless, most of the topics and ideas espoused in the Pragmatosphere are quite different from the NRx blogosphere.

2.1. Blithering Genius

Blithering Genius has written his own response to his RatWiki article, so many of the critiques made in the RatWiki Pragmatosphere section about him are already addressed there.

… he argues that differences in averages between white Americans and black Americans regarding income, crime, welfare use, and single parenthood are caused mostly by genetic differences. This is a different claim than the typical hereditarian claim that IQ differences between these two groups are 50-75% caused by genetic differences, as some of these things only exist in relation to one’s environment.

Actually, most recent pro-hereditarian studies would say that IQ is ~80% hereditary and ~20% environmental. Due to the Wilson Effect, the heritability of IQ tends to increase with age, where IQ reaches an asymptote at about 0.80 at 18–20 years of age and continuing at that level well into adulthood (Source). Most hereditarians believe that racial disparities are “probably mostly genetic”.

2.2. Zero Contradictions

[Zero Contradictions] appears to defend the (alleged) legitimacy of race more strongly than Blithering Genius, going as far as to call those who reject the construct “race denialists”.

It’s misleading to call race a “social construct”, and that term is over-used in general. It’s not clear what Liam means when he calls race a “social construct”. Race has real biological and physiological properties.

He seems to have learned a very bad lesson from the article “Why Most Academic Research is Fake”.

I was already skeptical of academic research before I discovered Blithering Genius’s content, but the article “Why Most Academic Research is Fake” was great for explicitly articulating what I was implicitly recognizing. Liam has still never given a proper refutation to “Why Most Academic Research is Fake”. I’ve also written my own essay critiquing academic research, which presents a more nuanced view and gives lots of examples.

His more extreme claims regarding race are mostly attributed to Thuletide, a white supremacist blogger.

The Race FAQs page does have a lot of links to Thuletide’s blog, but most of the claims that I’ve said about race can’t be attributed to Thuletide. Blithering Genius has more been the most influential person in shaping my views on race, and I’ve also done my own thinking about it.

Before I accepted race realism, my views on race were more similar to WhatIfAltHist, who is aware of genetic differences between races and has stated that he doesn’t believe that intelligence and other racial disparities are mostly genetic. Differences in mental abilities between races was never a topic that I had seriously thought about, until I had discovered Blithering Genius’s content and started thinking about evolutionary biology.

… as he frequently cites racialist and white supremacist blogs for claims regarding human genetics.

It’s usually the case that people are often right about some things and wrong about other things. You have to use your best judgment for determining the truth. If a person has reasonable, evidence-based views for X, Y, and Z, then I am likely to judge things that they talk about relating to X, Y, and Z as “true”. Conversely, if a person has irrational, ideological views for A, B, and C, then I will have high skepticism when they talk about things relating to A, B, and C. I may even judge their views on A, B, and C as “false”. Generally speaking, it’s just a bad idea to assume or side with someone else is right on everything, because there will almost certainly be something that any random person fails to understand correctly.

For Thuletide and Metapedia, I know that they have unreasonable opposing opinions against race-mixing (which I’ve spoken out against on my Race FAQs page), they believe in genetic tribalism despite how it’s contrary to biological evidence, they fail to recognize that overpopulation is a huge problem, they are equally lazy in evaluating their assumptions and understanding epistemology, etc. When Thuletide, Metapedia, and other websites talk about those topics, I know that they’re wrong, so I don’t endorse their positions or value their opinions.

Thuletide has made mistakes in the past, like how he underestimated the average Ashkenazi IQ, but then he admitted that he was wrong about it and he corrected himself that 108 is a better estimate. He also gatekeeps and says that Jews and hapas are not white. That is a nuanced question, and it depends on the context. I can tell when he’s being ideological when I see it, but I usually trust most of what Thuletide claims regarding racial biology and genetics.

If I had all the time in the world, I would include all the useful information from sites like Metapedia, Thuletide, etc into my own website/encyclopedia, and remove all the racist garbage and rhetoric to reflect a more rational worldview. Sadly, I don’t have infinite time to write an expansive essay on every topic there is to think about, so I have to make do by linking to essays that describe topics accurately or mostly accurately, while saying what I disagree with about them.

Liam thinks that Zero Contradictions is racist.

It seems that Liam believes that I’m racist, so he wants to portray me as a racist person in his RatWiki article. I’ve already made my anti-racist position crystal clear on my Race FAQs to the extent that I could, so I obviously don’t agree with the racist views expressed by Thuletide, Metapedia, and others. I’ve said multiple times that I detest racial supremacists, that I’m mixed-race, that all people deserve equal rights and equal respect regardless of their race, that I support race-blind policies and eugenics, and I acknowledged that averages and exceptions exist for all races. I also don’t agree with the fake scientific theories that race idealists use to promote their narratives and beliefs (e.g. r/K selection theory), and I made sure to include a couple other sections in the Race FAQs that specifically address what race idealists misunderstand about the nature of biological race {(1), (2)}. I would love to live in a world where all races have equal or near equal intelligence, but unfortunately, that’s not the world that we live in. That premise is not supported by any data or sound reasoning, and I’ve elaborated extensively on my Race FAQs page why that’s the case.

Beyond all this, I don’t know what more I would have to say to Liam and other people to make them believe that I don’t condone racism. If I was really racist, I would’ve said so by now. Everything that I’ve written on my webpages accurately reflects my views.

In an FAQs page, he has a section on the Great Replacement, in which he fearmongers about white people disappearing.

The claim that I’m “fearmongering” about white people disappearing does not refute anything that I’ve said in my section on the Great Replacement. All demographic projections predict that the United States will no longer be >50% white by 2045, and the share of whites in the US and other countries are projected to continue declining past the 50% point, unless some serious political, cultural, and demographic changes are made. Purely white people may continue to exist in the future, but if they do, it’s quite possible that they could eventually become as rare as whites in South Africa, or as uncommon as American Indians are in the United States. If white people are both declining as a percentage of the population (as the older, more white generations die out) and in absolute numbers (after factoring in mixed-race people and how “white” is defined), then yes, there is indeed a ongoing Great Replacement of white people within historically white countries.

ZC: Statistics consistently show that countries with indigenous and/or historically European populations are gradually being replaced by non-European people. The youngest generations in many Western countries are only half European. Once all the older more white generations die off, and as the younger generations continue to become less and less white, white people will be replaced in Western countries by non-white people.
Gecko: Zero Contradictions is fearmongering about white people disappearing.

How is this a rational argument against what I’ve written?? Why does Liam implicitly believe that there’s nothing wrong with the youngest generations of historically white countries becoming less than half white? All the other major races and ethnic groups (SS Africans, Africans, Indians, East Asians, etc) already have their own countries and lands, so it’s fair that historically white countries get to retain demographics that are majority European. It was white people who invented most of the technology of the modern world, and they’re slowly dying out.

He then cites “evidence” from Thuletide of “Anti-White Ideology And Propaganda In The West”, none of which is convincing.

It’s literally everywhere. You could only miss it if you’re blind in one eye, can’t see out of the other. As BG had said, when “It’s okay to be white” is labeled a hate slogan, we have a problem.

In the first Thuletide article from that section, there were hundreds of anti-white media headlines and images displayed in that article, and they’re only a fraction of all the anti-white headlines out there on the Internet. They all try to prime the reader into accepting anti-white, pro-mass-immigration, pro-multiracial biases. This is how subliminal messaging, classical conditioning, and selective attention all work.

Liam is deliberately refusing to acknowledge all the anti-white propaganda in the West for himself. Liam has known and self-identified himself as being autistic ever since he was 11 years old, so I suspect that this may explain why he’s been unable to understand and recognize the cultural implicature and anti-white biases present in society.

Supporting mass immigration counts as an “anti-white” policy because it exacerbates the Great Replacement. Aside from that, it doesn’t benefit most native citizens in any conceivable way either. As I’ve written before, there’s no evidence that racial diversity confers any major advantages to a society in any real way. And as BG has written, mass immigration tends to benefit businesses, while harming most other native-born Canadians, including working middle class families, job seekers, tenants, etc. Most of the governments of the Western world are not aligned with the common folk.

The following quote is from Reddit. In the quote, u/Electric-Gecko is referring to Thuletide’s article, The Rise of Anti-White Bias in Media, with Statistical Evidence:

The second one “with statistical evidence” is laughably unscientific; it makes no use of control groups (which would be rather easy).

A scientist wouldn’t use control variables unless they were running an experiment and trying to test for a dependent variable. In Thuletide’s article, he’s only displaying observational data. There are no dependent variables that we’re running tests for, so there’s no reason to use control variables. The point of the article was to show that there was a large sudden increase in the media’s focus on “racism”, “white supremacy”, “white privilege”, etc in the 2010s. It shouldn’t be hard to understand that this demonstrates how anti-white propaganda has been increasing in the West in recent years.

Finally, he has a section called “Ideas For Boosting Western Fertility”,[7] which is ironic given his claim that overpopulation will be “basically game over for civilization”, and that population control will be required to prevent it.[8]

My section “Ideas For Boosting Western Fertility” is not ironic. My Overpopulation FAQs has a section about why population collapse is a problem too, so I’m against both overpopulation and population collapse. I wrote my ideas for boosting western fertility because I want humanity to achieve a stable, predictable, and sustainable population for the future. Given the current Great Replacement of white people, boosting Western fertility rates is especially important to help stop this from happening.

Lastly, it’s telling how Liam chose to only focus on the parts of my website that he perceives to be bad, while ignoring all the other topics on my website (e.g. Neo-Malthusian concerns, Georgism, game theory, the human condition, epistemology, linguistics, etc).

2.3. Brittonic Memetics

He has said that he used to argue with racialists online, but they managed to change his worldview in the end.

We’ll see if Gecko ever changes his worldview… We shouldn’t be optimistic, but there may be hope.

He appears to have a more accurate and complex social understanding of human behavior than both Blithering Genius and Zero Contradictions.

It’s not clear why Liam believes that Felix has a more complex social understanding of human behavior than BG or ZC. All the major Pragmatospherian bloggers would agree that human behavior is influenced by biology and that psychology and sociology are both specialized fields that exist within the more abstract field of biology. Biology has implications for psychology and sociology, but biology can’t be understood through psychology and sociology alone. See: Classifying Fields of Knowledge.

Generally speaking, when someone doesn’t have a well-developed theory of epistemology, it’s a red flag that there’s probably many dubious things that they misunderstand about reality.

Felix has his own “Racial differences” article. This one is milder than the one from Zero Contradictions. He acknowledges the socially-constructed nature of race.

Once again, it’s not clear what Gecko means when he says “the socially-constructed nature of race”. This has already been addressed.

Felix has an article on the “gay germ theory”, which is the hypothesis that male homosexuality is caused by a mind-altering pathogen.

The Pragmatopian and I have also written an article on the “gay pathogen theory”, but perhaps it’d be better if our article was combined with Felix’s article.

The article cites Emil O. W. Kirkegaard.

Also note that ZC’s Race FAQs page has been tweeted and endorsed by Emil Kirkegaard.

2.4. Eternal Anglo

This [Eternal Anglo] is a much smaller blog than the others. It has interactive maps showing fertility rates by race in various western countries by region,[19] as well as a blog post about where different countries should source their immigrants based on their purported IQs.[20] Why would anyone want that? (links to RatWiki article on Racism)

“We shouldn’t collect data on X” implies “We shouldn’t analyze X”, which implies “We should be ignorant about X”. Given that race has strong implications regarding economic productivity, crime rates, diseases, etc, there are no reasons to not collect data regarding the fertility rates of different races. As with everything political and everything that has conflicts of interest, it’s important to have safeguards that prevent information from being abused.

Moreover, I’m sure that there’s plenty of leftists out there that are in favor of collecting statistics on racial demographics, perhaps to advance their own “anti-racist” agendas. Lots of leftist city planners advocate for making cities more ethnically diverse, and collecting statistics on fertility rates by race is necessary to prove whether the Great Replacement is real or not.

Furthermore, it’s bad faith on Liam’s part to claim that concerns about the Great Replacement are “fear-mongering”, while he simultaneously opposes any attempts to prove whether it is happening (or not). I would question if Liam is against collecting racial fertility statistics precisely because he wants to hide evidence that the Great Replacement is occurring.

3. A Challenge To RatWiki

Liam has repeatedly ignore many of the Occam’s Razor arguments against race denialism, and he’s failed to address them beyond saying “they’re not convincing”. RatWiki’s article on “Racialism” doesn’t sufficiently address the arguments made in ZC’s Race FAQs either:

If Liam and RatWiki really believe that they’re more rational than the race realists, why can’t they address any of these arguments and give rational rebuttals against them? I welcome challenge Liam and the other RatWiki editors to refute these arguments. If they can’t, then they’re frauds and they should concede.

Moreover, Liam isn’t trying to make his RatWiki article representative of the philosophy and beliefs of the Pragmatosphere. As he’s stated on the talk page for Blithering Genius’s RatWiki article:

I’m primarily writing this article for potential followers of him, not RationalWiki regulars. I want it to be in the Google search results when people search him.

I doubt this will work as Liam intends because the RatWiki articles on Blithering Genius and the Pragmatosphere just don’t seem very persuasive in my opinion, but I could be wrong. Anyone can prattle nonsense, and they’ll surely find someone who agrees with it, even if it’s irrational.

4. Debate Fatigue & Tactical Empiricism

Liam has written the following on the talk page for the Pragmatosphere’s RatWiki article:

I started these RationalWiki articles after trying to persuade ZC against some of the nuttier claims on his website, but he stubbornly stuck to them even after I thoroughly argued against them and he had no ground to stand on. Since he so stubbornly motivated to promote things which were clearly non-factual (which would be clear to him by that point), I figured that the least I can do is dissuade others from believing what they see from him and BG.

Liam has not thoroughly argued against the claims that I made on my website or against him on Reddit. The Reddit discussion ended when I determined that he was being bad-faith. Before that, I told him that one of the reasons why I was ending the discussion was that he didn’t keep up with all the comment replies that I was sending him, which he acknowledged here.

He never replied to several of the comments that I had made, and instead, he chose to report me to the mods of r/Georgism so that he could stop arguing with me. So it’s very dishonest on his part to claim that he’s debunked everything that I’ve said. I also wouldn’t have had to delete all my reddit comments for my own protection if he hadn’t reported them in the first place. Although a month later, it seems that the reddit mods didn’t care about what I wrote since they never responded to his complaint, probably because they realize that he was just being a sore loser was losing the argument. So, I guess I didn’t have to delete them after all.

Liam also rage-quit when he was arguing with us on Discord, even though I was willing to keep arguing as long as he was willing to continue talking about the subjects.

Liam uses tactical empiricism.

In this screenshot, we can see that Liam is looking for reasons why race realism is wrong, rather than reasons why it’s right. There isn’t anything wrong on his part with having skepticism or seeking expert advice for ideas that he’s unsure of, but it is unreasonably partisan for him to not consider the possibility that all the race realist claims may be true.

I should also clarify that I was talking about racial disparities everywhere across the globe, not just the US. Many of the racial disparities regarding wealth, IQ, crime rates, and academic achievement that are observed in the US can also be observed across the entire world. As an aside, Liam is right that the anti-Georgists who were attacking him were using a Guilt by Association Fallacy. I’d like to see them argue against the arguments I’ve made in my Eugenics FAQs.

5. Miscellaneous

As another aside, Liam wrote the following on the RatWiki Saloon Bar talk page:

It’s strange and misleading that he said that it’s “opposed by left-leaning people”, as the economic ideology associated with it; Georgism, is quite left-of-center at it’s core (though some center-right people support it).

I disagree that Georgism is inherently “left-of-center”. If anything, Georgism is compatible with nearly every ideology, simply because it’s a great idea and better game-theoretic solution to land ownership.

At one point in our reddit discussion, I told u/Electric-Gecko “I’m convinced that the reason why you don’t like it is because it conflicts with your moral biases”, and he responded with the following:

This is not a reasonable conclusion to make about me based on what I said. Your argument was a bad one regardless of my moral views on the subject, or even if I like it’s conclusion. If you were writing an essay arguing for something that I agreed with, and you wrote an argument like that, I would tell you to cut it out, because it’s so terribly ridiculous

In this comment, u/Electric-Gecko said the following:

Even if supporting racism isn’t the conclusion that you derive from your claims, persuading others of those things on race is a more likely to turn them racist than it is to turn them against affirmative action without being racist. This is what I was getting at.

Clearly, Liam does have at least some moral biases with acknowledging that racial disparities are mostly genetic, even if it’s true. Since this is a common objection against acknowledging genetic racial differences, I added a new question to the Race FAQs that addresses it specifically. I recommend that Liam read that section to understand my position.

We should also emphasize that the taboo implications of race realism are obviously a major reason why there’s a lot of fake research out there that tries to (fallaciously) argue against race realism. Nevertheless, Liam has continuously labeled race realist research as being fake, while trusting mainstream research, since it fits his biases better.

In one reddit comment, u/Electric-Gecko wrote:

I don’t want to spend the rest of my life responding to your stuff, so don’t expect me to reply to everything.

And he’s right. He doesn’t have to spend of his life responding to my arguments. If he would just concede and accept that my arguments are more rational than his arguments, then that would be the end of the debate, and everyone would live happily ever after.

Later on, Liam wrote the following on RatWiki’s talk page for Blithering Genius:

Blithering Genius himself has changed his mind on whether his community is a cult. Before banning me and two other dissident users he said “From now on I am a cult leader. This server will exist only to serve my cult. Those who aren’t loyal will be banned”.
Well, he didn’t quite say that, but almost. Here is a screenshot of what he wrote:
Screenshot of text written by Blithering Genius – Liam

Given that the screenshot is nothing like what Liam is claiming that BG said (which he partially acknowledged), this reveals to me that Liam is so desperate to believe that Blithering Genius is a cult leader that he’s willing to lie to himself and the world that about what he wants to believe.

Liam simply wants to find every possible irrational excuse or lie that he can possibly think of to ignore the simpler, more rational, and yet politically incorrect explanations for why racial disparities exist, and why his worldview is bullshit. He isn’t interested in the truth. Instead, he wants to do backflips and mental gymnastics to support less plausible hypotheses, even if there’s stronger evidence and reasoning to support more likely hypotheses.



In this screenshot, we can see that Electric-Gecko tried to report Zero Contradictions and get him banned from Reddit. The r/Georgism mods decided that Electric-Gecko had no valid reasons for banning Zero Contradictions. gecko-asks-to-ban-ZC-1--october-2023.jpg

Last Modified: 2024 May 17, 19:06

Author: Zero Contradictions